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TOPIC: Guidelines for 928OC Event Support

Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 06 Sep 2013 01:13 #15858


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In regard to the "accounting" requirement/request, which seems to be a major issue for some, I believe we should all remember that ANY OC expenditure is actually 'other peoples money' (i.e. members have put those $ into the OC account. Thus, it is the Boards opinion that the 'members' deserve an accounting. The OC would be delighted for the organizer to make a huge profit, as that would mean the event was a huge success.

Gary Knox
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 06 Sep 2013 01:58 #15859


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Whew!

Greg,
I guess it could go like this:

Assume that the OCIC contributes $15.00 per attendee, the producer needs $50.00 per attendee to break even, and OC dues are $28.00. Add-on membership means that a year is added to a membership when the current membership runs out.

Attendance fees:
Member fee: .................................. $50.00 (to producer)
Member fee with add-on membership:.. $78.00 ($50 to producer, $28 to OCIC for those that want the convenience of one-stop shopping)
Non-member fee:............................ $65.00 ($50 to producer, $15 back to OCIC as a 'refund' to their contribution for a non-member attendee)
Non-member fee + membership: ........ $78.00 ($50 to producer, $28 to OCIC)

The package deal encourages new memberships by saving non-members $13.00 over the OCIC and membership separately, and the OCIC is compensated for their non-member costs. Any new members just improve the OCIC numbers and existing members have the choice of deciding to renew at their anniversary or adding a year onto their membership at their anniversary automatically. And the producer has an easier 'sell' to the existing members with the smaller fee.

The OCIC could also choose to subsidize an existing member's add-on membership cost if there was a compelling reason for driving members toward add-on membership. I'd be curious to know what that might be, since it only affects a fraction of the membership.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 06 Sep 2013 03:15 #15860


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Roger,
I don't think the OC is a 'sponsor' of the event in the sense that a vendor is a sponsor. Rather, they are entering into a contract where the producer offers to provide the OC with an International Convention where the mission of the OC is furthered and the OC agrees to lend its name and limited funding to that purpose.

Gary makes the point that the OC has a fiduciary responsibility to its members for the funds it expends. I think that's valid for those funds, but not for the financials of the entire event. I think that's true unless or until the OC itself produces the event; at that point the members should expect a full accounting of the entire event.

As a member, I would like to be shown how the funds that the Club provides is used to further the mission of the Club.

For example, " 'X' dollars will be spent on supporting the use and maintenance of the 928 by funding a demonstration and documentation of the installation of a supercharger, and 'Y' dollars will spent to foster camaraderie by setting up a webinar during the event for the non-attending 928 community". If that is the basis for the funding, then the accounting is really the proof that the activities proposed actually happened rather than which dollars went where.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 06 Sep 2013 06:50 #15861


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Bill,

OK I see what you're thinking now. However, I think that having four different fee levels for an event makes things too complicated. Having a single fee is a better way to go, in my opinion.


Gary,

Since 928-related gatherings are not designed to make a profit, they generally come close to breaking even, or, if the organizer does not plan correctly there can be significant losses. So, a successful event (financially) is one that comes close to breaking even, and there are no "huge profits" to be made. It's been my experience that by taking the time to develop a realistic budget spreadsheet up front, the organizer has a much better chance of minimizing losses.


Roger,

Obviously the main difference between your $200 sponsorship of Frenzy and the OC's potential $2000 sponsorship of OCIC is one of magnitude. Also, Frenzy tells you up front what you get for your sponsorship dollars: web presence, display table at event, honorable mention and business logo on event shirt. It seems proper that the OC should have some type of accounting for how the member funds are being expended.

This is the first year in quite a while for the 928 Frenzy to be a sanctioned PCA event. When I approached the local PCA board I was told that I had to provide a detailed budget in order for the event to be approved. They wanted to see that the event was designed to break even plus have a couple hundred dollars of buffer. I thought that was a reasonable request, and I was happy to comply. Perhaps using a similar approach for the OCIC would work well. What do you think?
Greg Nichols
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 06 Sep 2013 21:15 #15866

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Greg, I think the PCA is just a wee bit bigger than the OC and comes with all the red tape associated with an organization of its size. I don't know that we want to emulate them.

I still don't see why the OC wants, needs, or thinks it's owed a full monetary accounting. I would think the OC would mainly be interested in:
  • how many people attended the event
  • how many were OC members
  • how many new members were signed up

This would let the OC know if the club's money was used effectively.

As it currently stands, I must ask - Why the need for full accounting? What will the OC do if the organizers make a bunch of money - ask for their money back??? Conversely, if the organizers lose their shirts on the event, which has happened before, will the OC be right there to step in and make them whole? I think NOT! So what's the point???

Look, you know nobody is getting rich off these things. As such, the whole OC required full accounting just reeks of bureaucracy. Part of the beauty of small organizations is the LACK of rules and regs. I think this may be what's setting Roger off. He's willing to bust his ass and bear significant financial risk to put on an OCIC, just to have someone whose only involvement is a mailing a check (and furthermore benefits from new members signed up at the event) who is demanding a full accounting of funds. I'd be resentful, too.

Bottom line - Let the people who volunteer to organize these events, and bear the financial risk, do their thing. If you don't trust them to be good stewards of the OC's financial support, then don't give them any money to begin with.

Just my .928 cents. Thanks
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 06 Sep 2013 21:55 #15867

very well said Jarrod, exactly our view as we finalise for our event next year.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 07 Sep 2013 08:44 #15868

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I would add, I loan money for a living - often times into the millions of dollars and with a darn good track record of being repaid. Key word: loan. Of course I require financials, I want to make sure the person or entity I'm lending to has the capacity to pay me back. This is not the case here - the club is not expecting to be repaid, it's simply providing a sponsorship.

Maybe it's a matter of perspective, too. I have a hard time getting all wound-up and thinking we need to run volunteer organizers through the ringer over $2,800. Gets back to the trust issue I mentioned in my last post. I realize the club is relatively small and has limited funds, but still...
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 07 Sep 2013 13:14 #15869


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Jarrod,

When $2800 is roughly 25% of what you will bring in over an entire year, then I think a bit of accounting is not to much to ask for... Now, "full disclosure", well perhaps we can look in to that and alter it. It is a matter of showing members who have given their money to the club just what their money is being spent on. Dinner for guys who did attend an OCIC or shirts for the OCIC...whatever it is I think the members ought to be informed and the only way that can happen is if the organizer of the event chooses to inform the club of the expenditure.

As for embedded costs like a required $28 membership fee. I suspect most clubs only let members participate fully in their signature event. An OCIC would be the signature event of the 928 Owners Club. Is it not reasonable to request that attendees be members??? A PCA Parade will allow you to walk around the parking lot to look at the cars, but to be an "event participant" or to enter the Concours or the banquets you will be REQUIRED to be a member (or the assigned affiliate member...ie the spouse/family member) of the club to participate. I personally think that is a good idea and shouldn't require any serious effort on the part of the organizer.

People sign up, then they pay...each family will have ONE $28 fee that will be sent to the OC and they will either then have an existing membership extended by a year or they will be a new member with a one year membership. The membership chairman will have the list of attendees and he will check the records to see what gift that person should receive. A renewal gift or a new members packet. He will then send that out. The only thing the organizer will need to do is provide a list and a check...

This is all still evolving. And that will continue as it does with all organizations. We just want (as a board) to continue working towards being a financially viable club that can help its members with the Tool Loaner Program, Roadside Assistance Program and other programs that cost money and need volunteers.
James
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 07 Sep 2013 15:48 #15871

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pcar928fan;16242 wrote:
Jarrod,

When $2800 is roughly 25% of what you will bring in over an entire year, then I think a bit of accounting is not to much to ask for... Now, "full disclosure", well perhaps we can look in to that and alter it. It is a matter of showing members who have given their money to the club just what their money is being spent on. Dinner for guys who did attend an OCIC or shirts for the OCIC...whatever it is I think the members ought to be informed and the only way that can happen is if the organizer of the event chooses to inform the club of the expenditure.

As for embedded costs like a required $28 membership fee. I suspect most clubs only let members participate fully in their signature event. An OCIC would be the signature event of the 928 Owners Club. Is it not reasonable to request that attendees be members??? A PCA Parade will allow you to walk around the parking lot to look at the cars, but to be an "event participant" or to enter the Concours or the banquets you will be REQUIRED to be a member (or the assigned affiliate member...ie the spouse/family member) of the club to participate. I personally think that is a good idea and shouldn't require any serious effort on the part of the organizer.

People sign up, then they pay...each family will have ONE $28 fee that will be sent to the OC and they will either then have an existing membership extended by a year or they will be a new member with a one year membership. The membership chairman will have the list of attendees and he will check the records to see what gift that person should receive. A renewal gift or a new members packet. He will then send that out. The only thing the organizer will need to do is provide a list and a check...

This is all still evolving. And that will continue as it does with all organizations. We just want (as a board) to continue working towards being a financially viable club that can help its members with the Tool Loaner Program, Roadside Assistance Program and other programs that cost money and need volunteers.

James,

I have no problem with embedding a membership fee into the registration. Makes sense. You could tier the fee for members vs. non-members, the difference being the fee tacked on to join the club for non-member registration. That way everyone participating is a member, just as you desire.

As you say, $2,800 was indeed a significant amount of money for the club. That said, the board approved it, nobody forced them. They could certainly approve less next time.

I still don't see the point of getting a full accounting POST FACTO. No one has answered any of my questions posed earlier. Again I ask, what do you plan to do (or even better, what CAN you do) with financial results you get after the event? What if there is a big profit (yeah, right) or a big loss (more likely)? What's the board going to do?

If the board just has to have financials...and the club has successfully sponsored events without them for what, 15 years or so...the time to get financials is BEFORE the event. A proforma budget can illustrate the size, scope, and possible monetary needs of the event and its planners.

Look, I think much of this argument is the club's own fault. The way these OCIC's have been run has been misleading. For many years, I had no idea the club itself did NOT put the event on. I was quite surprised to find their only involvement was allowing use of the name and supplying a small monetary sponsorship. And this being the club's "SIGNATURE" event, as you say. It was, and is, that in NAME ONLY. The club insists that it have no involvement in actually putting on the event, and that the organizers bear ALL risk - financial, liability, planning and otherwise (I learned that real quick when I initially volunteered to be treasurer for the 2012 OCIC - but that's another story) Until that changes and the club starts putting these things on, I don't see where organizers owe the club anything other than a "thank you".

JW
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 08 Sep 2013 01:17 #15875


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JWise;16244 wrote:
James,
I have no problem with embedding a membership fee into the registration. Makes sense. You could tier the fee for members vs. non-members, the difference being the fee tacked on to join the club for non-member registration. That way everyone participating is a member, just as you desire.
JW

+1

Drop the goofy 'add a year onto a member's membership' business and tier the fee.

Add a tier for non-members who don't want a membership so that the producer, who's taking the risk here, can attract as many attendees as possible. I can't think of a reason not to allow non-members to participate, except in the formal car display. (BTW 'The PCA does it' is not a reason IMHO.)

Or better yet, let the producer decide how they want to handle the entry fees.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 08 Sep 2013 07:27 #15878

JWise;16244 wrote:
I still don't see the point of getting a full accounting POST FACTO. No one has answered any of my questions posed earlier. Again I ask, what do you plan to do (or even better, what CAN you do) with financial results you get after the event? What if there is a big profit (yeah, right) or a big loss (more likely)? What's the board going to do?

If the board just has to have financials...and the club has successfully sponsored events without them for what, 15 years or so...the time to get financials is BEFORE the event. A proforma budget can illustrate the size, scope, and possible monetary needs of the event and its planners.

Look, I think much of this argument is the club's own fault. The way these OCIC's have been run has been misleading. For many years, I had no idea the club itself did NOT put the event on. I was quite surprised to find their only involvement was allowing use of the name and supplying a small monetary sponsorship. And this being the club's "SIGNATURE" event, as you say. It was, and is, that in NAME ONLY. The club insists that it have no involvement in actually putting on the event, and that the organizers bear ALL risk - financial, liability, planning and otherwise (I learned that real quick when I initially volunteered to be treasurer for the 2012 OCIC - but that's another story) Until that changes and the club starts putting these things on, I don't see where organizers owe the club anything other than a "thank you".

JW

Couldn't agree more.

James and board, we truly hope the above are being discussed in a very timely fashion (now) so as to provide a definitive response.

As we are now well within the 1 year window for our event to be an OCIC (see guidelines) and well into organising the event time is very much of the essence.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 08 Sep 2013 19:24 #15885


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Greg, et al,

I agree, most OC events do not make money, and we are always hopeful that a sponsor does not lose money. I know of one that did make a profit (and it was donated to the OC). I know some that lost money, and that was 'swallowed' by the organizers. There is no obligation for the organizers to provide any profits to the OC, or for the OC to supplement any losses by the organizers.

BUT - I still believe that a profitable event for an organizer is a GREAT thing, as that would mean it was well attended, and the attendees thought it would represent a good value, or they would not have registered. Just my opinion!

Unfortunately, I am in a situation where I can not communicate with the OC board via e-mail for another ~week. To some degree, perhaps, the 'accounting' aspect is there as a continuation of history. IF it is a big issue, as it seems to have developed into, perhaps the Board should take another look at it, as James has suggested above. I'm certainly not opposed to such a review. Should we put up a 'vote' for members on this issue?????

Gary---



Gary--
PS: PM's sent to Greg about a different issue
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 10 Sep 2013 09:44 #15891


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Interesting thread. We (the local Pitt group) just did a small 928OC event this past summer - the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix gathering. It was the 4th annual. It is in a rebuilding phase after a few year hiatus, so still a small event, but growing.

We had hoped to get funding to offset food costs for the BBQ that was planned as part of the event, but that was not a permitted expenditure. We were able to obtain 928OC swag, for which I am grateful, and that was handed out to the gathering. The cost of the event was born entirely by us locals in Pittsburgh (split 4 ways, not big dollars by any stretch). Basically, we just made a local party out of it, and the 928OC aspect of it was not as big of a splash as it could have been. While we had the banner displayed at the car show at the Schenley Park, it was not hanging at my house for the BBQ - the BBQ was on us, not the club.

I am at a crossroads with respect to the 928 OC and what it has evolved into. I have become very active and involved in the local PCA, and that is an entirely positive and enriching experience. In fact, I have been actively promoting membership into the ARPCA for local shark owners, but I find it difficult to do the same for the 928OC. The issues raised in this thread and others like it are a big reason for this. What are the benefits? Frankly I am losing sight of them. (yes, I know about the tool loaner program; but I can get everything else from other sources).

We need to figure out what we want this club to be. Do we want it to grow? If so, let's come up with a better way - simplify the things that are roadblocks, such as taking heed of the points raised by Jarrod and Roger. I don't want to step into the middle of the sh!t storm - I have great respect for and believe Stan did a solid job over his tenure, James is still feeling his way and will do a good job, and I love Roger to death - but folks, there are good points here and we need to start making the Club something everybody with a 928 wants to be in rather than something we trying to peddle without the tools. Most members don't care about an accounting. They just care whether their club is legit and is growing (to Jarrod's excellent point). If the converse were true, then I would have dropped out a long time ago - I got valve stem caps for my $28 membership - who gives a crap? Not me. I am paying for relevance, not bickering and rules that keep me from putting on local events to promote my club.

Anyway, my $02. I do look forward to seeing everyone at Frenzy.

PS - just checked - last May (2012) I renewed membership for 2 years - to 2014. I attended Frenzy last September - did my membership renew for an additional year (to 2015)? Will it renew further by attending this year's Frenzy (to 2016)? These things have become quite confusing, and I'd like to know not just for me, but as a local 928OC "den mother" to be able to tell the locals of what the rules are. If membership is baked into the cost of the event, then I'd like to let those local shark owners know that, so that when they think about attending, I can let them know that they get the club membership too. Please advise since this is not at all clear to me.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 10 Sep 2013 15:12 #15892


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I guess it's true. What ever you do can be misunderstood and misconstrued by anyone at anytime.

No we don't give a damn about a "full accounting" if we don't have any financial responsibility. In doing the first one (and second one) I submitted it publicly just so others could see what was spent on what but for no other reason than to give info to the community (so others could pick and choose NOT to spend all I spent!). It would be great if others would do this but *if* they get their nose out of joint at the suggestion then screw it, who cares really?!

So forget the FULL ACCOUNTING (I think I speak for the Board and any common sense members). Also, in my opinion, FORGET the $28 membership "donation" to your Club. Forget the horrible accounting burdens in "collecting" this from attendees for your Club and forwarding it on. All the embedding talk and surreptitious charging of fees has put me off this, expletive deleted. No we don't want a "tiered" strategy unless the organizers desire that. I think simple is always better when it can be achieved... It used to be a good idea and a great way for an organizer to actually do something good for the Club (and hence, its members).

Go with whatever suits you when setting up the event but you might please try to actually do something good for the community and the Club and us members. Maybe provide the Club or the community the financial info if you wish to share the info. Maybe try to be a more positive force in the Club. Maybe try to suppress the griping and bring some positive input to the discussion.

I'll look at the Guidelines piece again and put some revisions to the Board.

Marc
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 10 Sep 2013 15:15 #15893


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Ed if you have a question about your membership you could contact Jim Willman at 928OCmembershipATaustin.rr.com

I think he would have the info to answer your membership question.

Marc
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 10 Sep 2013 20:43 #15897

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Marc White;16265 wrote:
I guess it's true. What ever you do can be misunderstood and misconstrued by anyone at anytime.

No we don't give a damn about a "full accounting" if we don't have any financial responsibility. In doing the first one (and second one) I submitted it publicly just so others could see what was spent on what but for no other reason than to give info to the community (so others could pick and choose NOT to spend all I spent!). It would be great if others would do this but *if* they get their nose out of joint at the suggestion then screw it, who cares really?!

So forget the FULL ACCOUNTING (I think I speak for the Board and any common sense members). Also, in my opinion, FORGET the $28 membership "donation" to your Club. Forget the horrible accounting burdens in "collecting" this from attendees for your Club and forwarding it on. All the embedding talk and surreptitious charging of fees has put me off this, expletive deleted. No we don't want a "tiered" strategy unless the organizers desire that. I think simple is always better when it can be achieved... It used to be a good idea and a great way for an organizer to actually do something good for the Club (and hence, its members).

Go with whatever suits you when setting up the event but you might please try to actually do something good for the community and the Club and us members. Maybe provide the Club or the community the financial info if you wish to share the info. Maybe try to be a more positive force in the Club. Maybe try to suppress the griping and bring some positive input to the discussion.

I'll look at the Guidelines piece again and put some revisions to the Board.

Marc

Hi Marc,

I went back and re-read the "guidelines" for the 3rd or 4th time. For the most part, I think they basically put in writing what has been the club's event policy all along. I hope my previous comments didn't come across too harshly, as overall, I think Gary and the board have done a great job developing them.

Unless I am mistaken, these seem to be the primary additions (at least in writing) to the club's historical stance on hosting events:

All meets and events submission
*Vendor participation and policy
*Insurance - is it required and if so, has it been obtained

OCIC
*Suggestion of at least 2 day event, preferably over a weekend
*Recommendation of not holding event in the same geographic area more often than every three years
*Request to submit financial summary

I think what you're saying is these "guidelines" are just that - "guidelines". As long as that's all they are, I don't have any problem with them - even the request for a "financial summary". Sounds to me like the board would find the following financial summary to be acceptable:
  • We raised X amount from fees, sponsorship, donation, etc
  • We spent Y amount with the biggest items being...
  • We made or lost Z amount, and here's the biggest reason why blah, blah, blah

To me, that's a reasonable expectation if the use is solely educational to help future organizers with their planning. As you know, there have been requests for financial information in the past based on groundless accusations of wrongdoing - I don't think such requests should merit much of a response other than a reminder that the club's financial involvement begins, and ends, with the donation of cash support and/or OC branded items. All financial risk is borne by the organizers, and any request for detailed financial information should be directed to them to respond however they see fit.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, not that I really have a say in this. Again, I hope my previous comments didn't come across only as criticism, as I certainly didn't intend them that way and overall I think the board is headed in the right direction with these "guidelines". Thanks!

Jarrod
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 10 Sep 2013 21:11 #15899


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JWise;16270 wrote:
As you know, there have been requests for financial information in the past based on groundless accusations of wrongdoing

Jarrod,

Just a data point;
The accusations were not made by the board, or any member of the board. The request for financial information was also not requested by the board.

As Gary stated, the policy of the 928 OC has always been that events should be profitable, so as to allow them to continue on year after year.

During my 9 years as president we never asked for an accounting from an event. We only asked the names of those in attendance, so as to determine if we were serving 928 OC members and were attracting new 928 OC members, when considering whether our sponsorship dollars were well spent and similar action would be justified in the future.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 10 Sep 2013 21:26 #15901

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Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net;16272 wrote:
Jarrod,

Just a data point;
The accusations were not made by the board, or any member of the board. The request for financial information was also not requested by the board.

As Gary stated, the policy of the 928 OC has always been that events should be profitable, so as to allow them to continue on year after year.

During my 9 years as president we never asked for an accounting from an event. We only asked the names of those in attendance, so as to determine if we were serving 928 OC members and were attracting new 928 OC members, when considering whether our sponsorship dollars were well spent and similar action would be justified in the future.

Stan,

My apology, I should have been more clear - it was not the board that I was referring to.

Thanks,
Jarrod
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 11 Sep 2013 21:29 #15913


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Jarrod,

Just a data point;
The accusations were not made by the board, or any member of the board. The request for financial information was also not requested by the board.

As Gary stated, the policy of the 928 OC has always been that events should be profitable, so as to allow them to continue on year after year.

During my 9 years as president we never asked for an accounting from an event. We only asked the names of those in attendance, so as to determine if we were serving 928 OC members and were attracting new 928 OC members, when considering whether our sponsorship dollars were well spent and similar action would be justified in the future.
email from Stan Shaw dated - 8/11/12 at that time SHAW was President of the OC.
Roger,

Will a final account be provided on the OCIC 2012? We will want to ensure members know the cost of the event.
I recall in 2009 there were new members signed up, but I have only heard of 1 from the 2012 event.
I recall in 2009 there was money returned to the 928 OC, but this year, while the 928 OC provided far more funding ($2800), I have not heard of any money being returned.

We will want to make sure the members are aware of the cost of the event to the 928 OC and the number of members served. As the annual dues for each member, after all other programs is something less than $15, a $2800 annual cost would represent the available funds from nearly 200 members, while only serving perhaps 10% of the members.

Of course many of my numbers are conjectures, as we have not received an accounting.
This email and the responses caused me to resign as a trustee of the OC - I continue to waste time on Stan Shaw and his lies for the good of the OC. I am happy to provide copies of the actual emails and the replies if anyone wishes to see them.

Marc with respect if you were in touch with the 928 community you would have a much better understanding of what the current thinking of the 928 community AT LARGE has of the OC and their rules.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 11 Sep 2013 21:47 #15915


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Roger Tyson;16286 wrote:
email from Stan Shaw dated - 8/11/12 at that time SHAW was President of the OC.
Roger,

Will a final account be provided on the OCIC 2012? We will want to ensure members know the cost of the event.
I recall in 2009 there were new members signed up, but I have only heard of 1 from the 2012 event.
I recall in 2009 there was money returned to the 928 OC, but this year, while the 928 OC provided far more funding ($2800), I have not heard of any money being returned.

We will want to make sure the members are aware of the cost of the event to the 928 OC and the number of members served. As the annual dues for each member, after all other programs is something less than $15, a $2800 annual cost would represent the available funds from nearly 200 members, while only serving perhaps 10% of the members.

Of course many of my numbers are conjectures, as we have not received an accounting.

This email and the responses caused me to resign as a trustee of the OC - I continue to waste time Stan Shaw and his lies for the good of the OC.

Marc with respect if you were in touch with the 928 community you would have a much better understanding of what the current thinking of the 928 community AT LARGE has of the OC and their rules.

Roger,

I know reality is a struggle for you.... Any reasoning person can see from the above post that I was asking for accounting of attendees (in some cases members) to understand how many people were served by our $2800 expenditure.

The board is quite aware of your constant poisoning of the 928 community against the 928 OC. Just like the above re-post, you attempt to deceive others. No different than the other day, when you suggested I said something would "never" happen. In that case you didn't even attempt to deceive with a mis-statement but rather said you wouldn't proceed any further.

You also claimed I "changed rules" but provided no evidence.

You tactics of making unsubstantiated statements is quite consistent, and to any thinking person quite obvious. Just keep posting, it only serves to prove my point.

P.S. Don't misstate why you are no longer on the board.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 11 Sep 2013 22:03 #15916


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I will totally ignore the last post from a NLA person who thinks he can twist everything to suit his lies.
I will ask one question of the BOARD - do you actually believe the lies of this person even though the facts say otherwise?
If you do just say so and I will resign my membership of the OC and take my ball and go home. I have done everything I can to support the OC - spend tons of my companies $, spent tons of my personal time and helped in every way I can think of to further the OC.

I will do everything I can to further the 928 community with or without the OC - I would prefer to be with the OC.

I need one answer and that is all - Yes or No - James it must come from you and no one else.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 11 Sep 2013 22:07 #15917


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Actually forget what I said in the last post - I will with immediate effect resign as a lifetime member of the OC. Trying to help and support the OC is a losing battle and only causes me heartache and stress - I am much better without them. You win Stan and I hope your relationship with the OC is a long and happy one.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 12 Sep 2013 01:06 #15919


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This is very unfortunate that a disagreement on some rules has brought out bitterness between two valued men that we all know.
I know that there is history but that is all I know and all I need to know.
I am very very sad because I have come to know both Roger and Stan through this internet meeting place and I owe you both for different reasons.
I do not want to know your personal reasons that you have against each other and I dont think you should share them on here now that it has come to this.
I thought it was I good Idea to let it be settled, but I fear I may have been mistaken to let it continue.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 12 Sep 2013 06:09 #15920


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928mac;16292 wrote:
This is very unfortunate that a disagreement

Just read what has transpired twice in the past week or so, after essentially no comments for a year, Roger chose to twice post making defaming statements about me, specifically using my name without any prior prompting or cause.

When challenged to back his statements up, in one case Roger demurred and in the other provided a post that did not prove his point.

In one post Roger claims I stated the 928 OC would "never" sponsor a dinner again. I challenged Roger to back this statement up, as I know it to be untrue. Instead he posts a rant without evidence that I said something would "never" happen.

In another post a member mentioned that there were accusations made in the past. To which I provided the "data point" that those accusations did not come from the 928 OC or any of its members and that the 928 OC had not requested financial disclosure from events in the past. The member accepted this comment without issue. Roger then posts an old statement where a request was made for an accounting of attendees, as though that defends his position.

There is no disagreement on rules, as Roger has not cited any.

Roger started his attacks on me just over a year ago. The cause has always been quite transparent to me, it has nothing to do with rules.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 12 Sep 2013 11:02 #15925


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Oliver (Hardy) to Stan (Laurel): "Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into"
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 12 Sep 2013 11:39 #15927


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hb4;16298 wrote:
Oliver (Hardy) to Stan (Laurel): "Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into"

I don't find this kind of posting cute or funny. I would encourage others that are viewing this thread to pass on any similar opportunities to fit in their poor efforts at comedy. If you have something constructive to add and you can stay on point, by all means, let's hear it. We don't have child forums here.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 12 Sep 2013 12:20 #15928


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A little background information may be helpful. Prior to May 2013, the OC did not have any written guidance regarding sponsorship of events. The Guidelines document was developed so that we could have a consistent policy going forward, and so that new event organizers could have guidance to go by. The Guidelines were not meant to be an obstacle. They were meant to be helpful to future event organizers and future OC boards.

It would be great if we could continue to add more OC-sponsored gatherings, and that is the Club's goal. This year we saw the inaugural event of "Sharks in the Mississippi" organized by Jeff Spahn. When a new volunteer like Jeff steps forward and wants to organize a 928 gathering, doesn't it make sense that the OC should have some written guidance to provide? We also want to avoid the misunderstandings that so often arise when a lack of communication is present.

The OC Board is willing to listen to member input and make modifications to the Guidelines as necessary. I shouldn't have to say this, but apparently I do. Your suggestions will be more well-received and more effective if they are well-reasoned and presented politely.
Greg Nichols
1987 928S4
928OC Charter Member
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 12 Sep 2013 15:51 #15929


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Please see my previous posts in this thread for what I hope are examples of polite well-reasoned contributions (IMHO, and Malcom's at least) so perhaps, Austin, you will forgive my feeble attempt at humor this one time. And thank you for assuming that I am much younger than I really am.
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 12 Sep 2013 22:14 #15933


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You're right, Bill. Most of the posts have been reasonable. I hope we can move forward in a totally positive manner now and address the issues with the Event Guidelines that have been raised. If there are other constructive comments to be made, they can be offered at this time.
Greg Nichols
1987 928S4
928OC Charter Member
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 14 Sep 2013 16:35 #15942


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I too share the 'sadness' regarding Roger's decision to terminate his lifetime membership in 928 OC. He has been a great contributor to the 928 community, and to the 928 Owners Club. SO SAD to see this happen.

I have been closely associated with both Stan S. and Roger T. for nearly 10 years. and consider them both to be friends. I've spent time with each of them at various 928 and Drivers Ed events. In my opinion, there is no 'winner' here. Neither of them have remembered the 'other cheek' as well as I wish they had.

I do not 'side' with either hardened position, but feel there was just too much public animosity, and I for one could not figure a way to diminish it - perhaps I didn't spend enough 'emotional capital' to find a solution.

Unfortunately none of us are perfect, and we can all strive to do better in the future. I commit to do that, and to help the members of 928 OC to enjoy their participation in Club activities.

Gary Knox
928 OC charter member and current Treasurer
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 15 Sep 2013 20:20 #15949


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Well said,
1983 928S - 16v 4.7L L-Jetronic
Dark Grey w/ Blue Leather
85/86 exhaust manifolds
Y-Pipe
SS Hi-perf Cat
S4 springs
Bilstein shocks
Air pump delete
VIN: WP0JB0926DS861180
- - Isn't Life great? - -
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Guidelines for 928OC Event Support 18 Sep 2013 18:15 #15956


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Forward my friends! I too am saddened by events, but we will continue forward and improve the club step by step!

Thanks to each of you who participate in this forum and in 928 events around the world! It is YOUR dedication that make this club great! It is not my efforts or those of any other individual board member who make this place what it is, it is YOU the members. We are here only to work for you and oversee the spending of the money that you provide for your membership each year.

We are continually evaluating and improving (we hope) processes and procedures to make the 928 Owners Club a more inviting place to spend time.

Remember we have the Roadside assistance program that I have not seen the likes of with ANY other car club (please sign up and volunteer if you have not), the Tool Loaner program and the 928 Registry. All of these are here to help make your 928 ownership experience more enjoyable and fulfilling!
James
78 Silver / Black-white #295
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black
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