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TOPIC: Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge?

Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 26 Jan 2012 21:47 #7930


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he_mech_usmc;8098 wrote:
Steve,
I'll try to get a video of the noise and general composure of the car. I don't want to try and crank it over again without finding out the cause of the issue...aluminum block without sleeves with that noise, no thanks...although I do have an lt1 that I could throw in it and know that it would run...or NOT...I love the sound of that engine when it runs right. I just changed the oil, but I'm going to drain and remove the pan to see the bottom side. Is it possible to get the pan out without pulling the motor and without too much grief? I'm also going to boroscope the cyls through the spark plug holes.

Thanks,
Josh

Removing the oil pan is over kill at this point, trust me, I'm a mechanic too.

Lets go back to the beginning and see what you found, and what you verified and fixed, and when the weird stuff started to happen.

Who you need leading you though is someone with the same style engine and fuel system. I can not look at my car and understand what you are doing because mine is a 89 S4.

But I can help you think, so!
Is it possible something dropped into a port when you had the intake off?
Did you vacuum and blow all the little rocks away before you loosened the bolts and removed the intake?

If it did not make this noise before the intake came off then I am betting you had debree drop into some of the cylinders.

Pull the plugs and have a close look with the scope
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 27 Jan 2012 08:40 #7932


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I will look back and see if I can remember the steps that I took. I took the entire lower intake out in one piece with tb and fd on and put it back in as one piece. I left the spider legs on the engine, vacuumed everything out and cleaned the valley. Then removed the spider legs...thought I was very careful to make sure that nothing entered the open cavities and then covered them for good measure. I had it off for a couple of days and then went back out to put it all back together, let it sit for a day or two and then went back out to get at it again. I noticed that there was quite a bit of condensation over everything in the engine bay, we had relatively warm weather and all of the snow melted off with some warm rain...inside the "garage in a box" it was pretty humid. I'm going to get back at it this evening and check everything out...post some pictures and possibly a video. I originally thought that it may have "hydro locked" from the humidity, but that noise was horrid.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 27 Jan 2012 20:56 #7950


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Got back at it tonight, plugs are fouled out...but with all the plugs out it turns over freely with no obstructions...looks like it was hydrolocking with fuel...going to get some new plugs and check for spark...if no spark, the only thing that hasn't been replaced in the ignition system is the resistors near the distributor. I'll post more when I get some new plugs...back in a bit.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 28 Jan 2012 10:19 #7953


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Put the plugs in last night...no time to check for spark. While taking the plugs out I broke a rather thick vacuum line, have line to replace, will get back out in a bit and replace and start with the usual suspects...may need to go get some fuel and some fuel system cleaner as well, charge the battery and let the pump run for a while just for some added benefit. I noticed when I boroscoped the cyls that there was quite a bit of carbon buildup on top of the pistons, could assume that there is quite a bit on the valves...any suggestions to a product to clean that stuff out? Or dump the fuel system cleaner in and when I get it fired up the cleaner may get the majority?

Thanks,
Josh

Appreciate all the help...as a technician myself I know that "noises" are hard to diag without actually being there.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 29 Jan 2012 19:24 #7969


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Got back out tonight, all plugs are new and in. The entire intake is all back together, all vacuum lines are new now. Tried cranking it over to check for spark...again hard to do when you're by yourself. Video at this point is a no go as well, need 2 people at this point to get anything worthwhile for anyone to help. The infamous "noise" is still present...I was thinking, could it be possible that it would be caused by the cold weather, or based off of the location that I think it's coming from in the lower end of the engine, could be the starter not disengaging or the tt coupler...either way not good juju at this point. I did find out today that there is a gentleman that is not too far away from my house, approx 10 min that has some experience in 928's and with CIS...I may take the car over to his shop in the morning if I can't figure anything else out tonight, or I may just have to bite the bullet and wait until it gets warmer.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 29 Jan 2012 20:01 #7970


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he_mech_usmc;8141 wrote:
Got back out tonight, all plugs are new and in. The entire intake is all back together, all vacuum lines are new now. Tried cranking it over to check for spark...again hard to do when you're by yourself. Video at this point is a no go as well, need 2 people at this point to get anything worthwhile for anyone to help. The infamous "noise" is still present...I was thinking, could it be possible that it would be caused by the cold weather, or based off of the location that I think it's coming from in the lower end of the engine, could be the starter not disengaging or the tt coupler...either way not good juju at this point. I did find out today that there is a gentleman that is not too far away from my house, approx 10 min that has some experience in 928's and with CIS...I may take the car over to his shop in the morning if I can't figure anything else out tonight, or I may just have to bite the bullet and wait until it gets warmer.

Thanks,
Josh

Maybe he will agree to stop by and take a listen and maybe he has a flatdeck to haul it with.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 29 Jan 2012 22:08 #7974


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928mac;8142 wrote:
Maybe he will agree to stop by and take a listen and maybe he has a flatdeck to haul it with.

I've talked to him once, decent enough guy...don't really know if he's got an active shop or just a hobby. He's got a old body us 928 with quad tb's, heard from another guy that they're doing his nephew's car now...don't know what year, just that it's a "black 928". Planning on stopping by and talking to him if I get a chance tomorrow.

Thanks for the help guys...really appreciate it.

I'll get back with anything I find out, maybe it will help the next person.

Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 30 Jan 2012 21:00 #8007


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Stopped today and talked to the guy just outside of my town, he has agreed to help me out with the car...no idea what he's thinking as far as payment, if anything at this point, looks like he's just a 928 guy that has a severe hobby, he said that he has to get a truck off of his lift before I can get my car over to him, don't know when that will be. His car is an 84 us, gold colored same as a Wessiach, his nephew's car is an 80 euro, new plenty about the big 3 parts suppliers. His nephew's car has the spoiler from 928 motorsports. He was telling me that there may be a rubber coupler at the flywheel that has let loose and has a possibility of making that noise, my car does not have that coupler...got home and dropped the lower bell housing and it has a metal clamp, flywheel gear is shot too...guess that is why the starter was grinding...fml. Guess there is a starting point for something new.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 31 Jan 2012 09:36 #8012


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I never would've come up with that flywheel consideration...even if it was off-base given the application!
If he set up or maintains those throttle bodies, then you're on to somebody with depth of knowledge. Hopefully he'll be up for banking some good karma and give you a hand gratis.
Sorry to hear of the flywheel trevails. I'm looking forward to hearing the outcome here, wish I'd been able to be more help thus far!
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 31 Jan 2012 13:12 #8018


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smtcapecod;8184 wrote:
I never would've come up with that flywheel consideration...even if it was off-base given the application!
If he set up or maintains those throttle bodies, then you're on to somebody with depth of knowledge. Hopefully he'll be up for banking some good karma and give you a hand gratis.
Sorry to hear of the flywheel trevails. I'm looking forward to hearing the outcome here, wish I'd been able to be more help thus far!


Appreciate the help from everyone, we'll see where it goes from here...

Just had a thought... if the flywheel ring gear is as trashed as it is with at least 2 sections missing at least 6-8 teeth, if the engine will turn over but not fire, ie, fuel or vacuum problems, the starter would hit the sections while cranking. Could that in turn make my infamous "noise", or possibly offset the balance of the flywheel? I'll see if I can pry away some parts from the guy near me...he has a complete flywheel for an early AT car... both cars at his place are 5 spd cars.

Thanks again,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 02 Feb 2012 08:40 #8065


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I HAVE A NEW FLYWHEEL!!!!! Should I use the entire thing, or just the ring gear? I also took my starter out, tore down and rebuilt, cleaned and some fresh paint for looks. Parts gratis are always great. The guy near me had it, both the cars at his place are 5 spd...nephew's car is an 80 euro, non S...guessing it then should be almost exactly like my car.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 02 Feb 2012 11:50 #8066


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he_mech_usmc;8237 wrote:
I HAVE A NEW FLYWHEEL!!!!! Should I use the entire thing, or just the ring gear? I also took my starter out, tore down and rebuilt, cleaned and some fresh paint for looks. Parts gratis are always great. The guy near me had it, both the cars at his place are 5 spd...nephew's car is an 80 euro, non S...guessing it then should be almost exactly like my car.

Thanks,
Josh

Use the entire flywheel.
You really need a camera so that you can privlage us with some pictures once in a while ;)
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 02 Feb 2012 12:34 #8067


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Pictures to come in a bit...I need to figure out how to "dumbdown" my pictures...everytime I try to get one uploaded it tells me that they are too big.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 02 Feb 2012 12:39 #8068


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he_mech_usmc;8239 wrote:
Pictures to come in a bit...I need to figure out how to "dumbdown" my pictures...everytime I try to get one uploaded it tells me that they are too big.

Thanks,
Josh

Yes, cameras take very large photos, and 'net users are notoriously impatient, so you want them to be concise. I suspect we will have mobile device users on here soon, if not already, that will be a bandwidth trial as well.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 02 Feb 2012 13:52 #8074


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Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net;8240 wrote:
I suspect we will have mobile device users on here soon, if not already, that will be a bandwidth trial as well.

That would be me...taken with a phone sent to the net...even the smallest resolution picture I take is too big pixel wise to upload, I think the memory size is about adequate though....maybe I can set up a photobucket and just go that way with a link...

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 02 Feb 2012 14:04 #8075


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he_mech_usmc;8246 wrote:
That would be me...taken with a phone sent to the net...even the smallest resolution picture I take is too big pixel wise to upload, I think the memory size is about adequate though....maybe I can set up a photobucket and just go that way with a link...

Thanks,
Josh

That’s the best way Josh, they are Great! and free!

I have thousands of pictures in my photo bucket account and can show them to anyone from anywhere there is a computer with internet.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 02 Feb 2012 14:22 #8076


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We'll see if this works...here are some pics...getting more uploaded once I get the old flywheel out.

http://s1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg531/he_mech_usmc/
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 02 Feb 2012 19:56 #8082


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Right on you are a bucket user

see how easy to post pictures

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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 03 Feb 2012 10:36 #8089


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added a couple of pics. not getting them to show up as I want here...but they are in the bucket...

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 06 Feb 2012 10:40 #8116


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With the realization that my ring gear is bad on my flywheel and the further realization that I have to remove the transmission and exhaust to get the tt out to then get the flywheel out, just curious for some suggestions while I am already tearing the car down for things to replace...already thinking about tt bearings, unknown when the last time they were done, if ever. Was thinking about Constantine's bearings and clamp.

Once I drop the exhaust it's gone, going to get one fabbed, so if anyone wants the parts already there shoot me an offer. Ansa pumpkin all the way to the resonator y-pipe. Don't know what I want yet for an exhaust, but I'm sure it will be less than the tt bearings and clamp.

1 step forward, 50 pieces to come out...well maybe only 6 REALLY big ones.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 06 Feb 2012 19:35 #8120


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I removed my flywheel without removing the TT or the engine.

You just need this much room, but it is NOT!! easy (and I'm a hard head)







I also took the cats out and replaced it with this muffler shop version that clears the bell-housing

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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 06 Feb 2012 20:34 #8123


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How were you able to get the bell housing back that far? Was it just from unbolting the bell housing, or did you have to shift something to gain that clearance? I don't really want to take the tt out, but I was planning on taking the current exhaust out and fabbing a new one...will be taking ideas on that after I get the new flywheel in...y-pipe to 3 inch to ?

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 06 Feb 2012 22:10 #8127


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Started with a screw driver, then flat bar then larger bar then I wedged in a wire brush.
It was very technical.

BTW, It you crack or brake the housing, I don't want to hear about it. ;)

If you can loosen the mount bolts it would help
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 03 Jun 2012 15:45 #9427


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O/P-- Did you finally win??? :confused:
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 20 Jun 2012 07:56 #9559


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No win in sight for the near future... getting back into another project...which may be finally running tonight. Self inflicted discouragement didn't help either...as soon as I get back at it I will post more...with pictures

TIA,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 20 Jun 2012 20:22 #9565


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I understand, my first 928 deathmatch was pretty epic, too.

Standing by, we're pulling for you. As much help as that is...:o
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 21 Jun 2012 10:18 #9576


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Don't get discouraged. I worked on the Schwartz car for 4 ($$$$) years before I got it somewhat roadworthy. I drove it 2 times and found that I had a head gasket leak. :( I've had other 928 projects and gotten my 928 "fix" that way, but I'm about ready to get back to it.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 21 Jun 2012 13:40 #9578


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Got my other project [85 Z28, 23k original miles] running last night..just have some stuff to button up to get it rolling and move on to the Euro...I forgot what race fuel smells like.

Planning on having an update soon.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 15 Jan 2013 09:19 #13208


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Well...6 months later and yep, you guessed it...still not running...with work and a lack of a garage to work in, I am now relegated to looking at my snow covered car in disgust. I did have a temporary garage set up, however, while I was gone for Military duty we had a wind storm and it decided it was better suited in my neighbors' yard. As promised...when I am able to tear back into it I will post pics.

Ever have one of those days where you're finally fed up with getting volunteered to work on everyone's crap? Yeah...hit that wall this morning.

Thanks for the support...love this place.

TIA,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 17 Jan 2013 21:54 #13234


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hang in there Josh.
you need to think back to where you saw those that did not have the life we have.
Cuba opened my eyes and as i look back through the pics, i thank the lord for what i have.

The car will wait.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 19 Jan 2013 18:06 #13259


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Nice post, Brad. Looking forward to the 'bucket link.

Josh, thanks for your service.

Spring will be here soon...well, sooner down here than Michigan or Canada....but while it isn't advised these cars can endure the occasional 'time out' and still come out the better for it...took a while for my CIS car to decide it wanted to stretch its legs again in the early 2000s. Wintah/Summah:

Attached files
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 30 Jan 2013 21:39 #13415


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I rescued a 56K mile 1979 928 that sat in a garage for 11 years. The owner never drained the fuel. Short but $weet description of what was needed to bring it back to life.

a) in-tank fuel pump was frozen. It would not unscrew. Had to replace the fuel tank and in-tank fuel pump.

b) external fuel pump frozen, had to replace it.

c) fuel pressure accumulator started leaking, had to replace it.

d) fuel distributor was clogged, had it rebuilt. I can recommend an EXCELLENT rebuilder, CIS Flowtech in Fairhope, AL. Larry knows his stuff.

e) removed all fuel injectors, had them cleaned. Note, CIS injectors are different from modern electric injectors. Most shops that do electric injectors do not have the equipment or skills for CIS injectors. I found a Bosch diesel truck service shop that had the ability to clean them.

f) Warm-up regulator had to be rebuilt. CIS Flowtech also rebuilds them.

Only after replacing/rebuilding the whole fuel system did it run well. Now, it runs like a new "old" car.

A set of CIS pressure gauges are needed to understand if the system is working correctly. Do a search on "CIS Fuel injection pressure tester" to find what is available.

DO NOT let CIS cars sit for years ... drive them. Keep fresh fuel in the tank.
Rich
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1993 928 GTS Cover Girl
1987 928 S4
1979 928 5-speed rescue
1979 928 5-liter track beast
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 25 Jul 2013 17:17 #15416


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How is it going- did you conquer it??
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 03 Aug 2013 14:49 #15500


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Not yet...work has not allowed me much time to work on the car...still haven't accomplished much and out of everyone I know they're scared of breaking something if they help. I'm hoping to get to SIH today...maybe if I can get out of work

Thanks
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 28 Aug 2013 19:45 #15752


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Ok...mental status check...
85 Z28...running and gone
85 vette 4+3 DNE manual/slushbox...running VERY well and teaching the wife to drive a stick
79 928 US, new to me...runs, needs battery and tires
86 928 US, new to me...runs, needs head gaskets
79 928 EURO, STILL needs flywheel

....lord what did I get myself into...
You can be a mechanic or technician...The choice is in HOW you fix it, not THAT you fix it.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 04 Sep 2013 07:59 #15824


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WE HAVE A WIN!!!!

I still need to provide pics, but it seems that every time I work on this car it's dark or I forget. I was frustrated with work and decided to take it out on the car. I made use of the crane on my work truck. Pulled the hood off and gave that SOB a big middle finger. New fly wheel is in. Now I just have to tighten the bell housing, reconnect the TT, install the lower BH with the starter, replace my fuel lines [finally]. I can actually see the light at the end of the tunnel again...also of note it was a bittersweet victory, the neighbor had a tree company take down a rather large tree which ended up partially crushing the 79 and 86 US cars. Tree company's insurance is covering the loss thankfully, just glad it didn't take all 3.

Thanks for the support,
Josh
You can be a mechanic or technician...The choice is in HOW you fix it, not THAT you fix it.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 07 Sep 2013 18:08 #15872


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Everything is buttoned back together finally... changed the hard lines from the FD to the injectors, primed the fuel system and guess what... it started! Now back to tuning the cis system. I have the gauge set to check pressure, also rebuilt the WUR prior to the hiatus. Also the "knock" I heard was from the old flywheel...wished some of you were closer...hoping to get her on the road by the end of the week since it's finally off the jackstands. It will run if I barely have any pressure on the gas pedal but want to die if I try to give it anything. I'll have to research my old thread on the "other" site to refresh my memory...forgot quite a lot since the last time I turned a wrench on this beast

Thanks again for all the support and advice
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 10 Sep 2013 21:00 #15898


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Any pros or cons to attempting to replace the WUR with an FPR from an 80 euro S? I'm trying to do some diag without my CIS gauge...it's leaking and won't maintain pressure to be able to read it. To refresh it is on a 79 euro kjet

Thanks,
Josh
You can be a mechanic or technician...The choice is in HOW you fix it, not THAT you fix it.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 10 Oct 2013 20:50 #16081


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Sorry to have left you hanging so long! Wow, what a development with the tree. Must be a sign? Hopefully augers well for your current project. At any rate...wur v. fpr is confusing me- my 83 Euro also has wur...no the 80 euro should be CIS not ljet. If they are both CIS and you just mean swapping wur for wur yes should be workable.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 11 Oct 2013 01:54 #16085


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Way to Go Josh. great progress.
ILL be gone for a month so you keep on inching her forward.
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