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TOPIC: Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge?

Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 21 Nov 2011 12:35 #7047


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I live in Charlotte, MI and am having fits still with my 79 OB Euro...will fire on fluid so I know it's got spark...checked timing...seems good, just wondering if anyone in the area has knowledge on the CIS system and may have some time to help me with some hands on...appreciate the help. PM me here or on Rennlist, I have the same name on both.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 21 Nov 2011 13:00 #7048


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Have you verified the fuel pump is running, can you hear it when you turn on the key?
Have you screwed a gauge on and verified that the pressure is over 35 psi (38-43)
After this have someone crank it while you listen for the injectors and at the same time I like to hold my fingers on the injector to try and feel them clicking.

I am betting that one of these things is not happening.

BTW let it be know that I would never ever ever use starting fluid on a gas engine

Try this to verify that it is not getting fuel as starting fluid can light without spark.
Dump 1/2 a lid of gas (from a spray can) down the MAF [remove air filter and dump it in the hole]
do not touch the gas peddle but crank it and see if it fires and runs for a few seconds.
If it dose, you are not getting fuel.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 21 Nov 2011 13:38 #7050


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Mac,
1. I verified that the fuel pump is working when the key is turned on and also while cranking.

2. as far as screwing a gauge in, I don't have the CIS gauges and do not see a good location to tap into.

3. as to the injectors "clicking" I don't remember that the k-jet style injectors "click" they are not electric and as far as I've read with a constant injection system, all they are really there for is to atomize the fuel for the fuel/ air mix. If I am mistaken I'm sorry.

I will attempt to check the fuel pressure from the FD when I get home today.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 21 Nov 2011 15:18 #7052


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Yea, CIS don't click and do require high pressure (I think higher than you are talking about Brad). I think there are two pumps for CIS car (well most of them, but I think you need both in a CIS car, but don't get me lying on that one).
James
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 21 Nov 2011 15:37 #7054


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Thanks James, I have heard that the early cars were hit and miss on the one or two pumps, some po earlier than me did the in tank delete...I may just need the bigger single pump...I heard that Andrew Olsen had intank pump issues so I really don't want to go back if I don't have to.

Thanks again,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 21 Nov 2011 16:44 #7055


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You are right Josh, sorry. (bangs head)

section 25-6 of the WSM has a control pressure "warm" 2.8 - 3.2 bar
without vacuum
and
system pressure test value of 5.2 - 5.8 bar

Fuel Injectors opening pressure is 3.0 - 4.1 bar

here is a link to the manuals
http://forums.928oc.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=163&highlight=manual

he_mech_usmc;7209 wrote:
Mac,
1. I verified that the fuel pump is working when the key is turned on and also while cranking.

2. as far as screwing a gauge in, I don't have the CIS gauges and do not see a good location to tap into.

3. as to the injectors "clicking" I don't remember that the k-jet style injectors "click" they are not electric and as far as I've read with a constant injection system, all they are really there for is to atomize the fuel for the fuel/ air mix. If I am mistaken I'm sorry.

I will attempt to check the fuel pressure from the FD when I get home today.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 22 Nov 2011 08:05 #7068


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Got home last night with no CIS gauges, held the FP relay to build pressure, car fired and I let go of the relay...relay stayed engaged and the car ran for approx 2 min, but when I lost pressure the car died...just wondering if the 044 pump may cure this...no visible leaks, and I can't smell fuel leaking anywhere so I don't know what is causing the loss of pressure, could be the cheap pump...got the CIS gauges on the way...didn't know if anyone had a spare 044 pump that I could get them to part with to try while I wait.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 22 Nov 2011 09:10 #7072


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Hi Josh,
I do not know a lot about those pumps except the guys with boosted cars sometimes need the extra flow.
I think the correct person to talk to about that would be Roger at 928Rus.
He sells the pumps so he should know what is required, what is over kill and what would not work.

Let us know what he says.

Brad
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 24 Nov 2011 21:39 #7120


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What do you mean by 'holding the relay'? Are you using a jumper wire? Just want to be clear on why the relay itself isn't suspect?

For the injectors- they'll sing when adjusted right and the pressure is on- you just depress the plate on the air meter while the pump is energized..but be careful of flooding the cylinders. Best case is to have the injectors out and running into a container- preferably a graduated cylinder of some sort so you can compare the resulting flow across the injectors.

Loss of pressure could be the pump...could be a bunch of material that occludes one of the screens as the flow pushes it against the obstruction. One common point of failure is the brass union where the main fuel feed goes into the fuel distributor, it has a very fine mesh brass screen inside that gets clogged, could impede sufficient flow through the FD and might affect pressure. THough the way the system recirculates...seems an odd symptom unless the WUR is way messed up. The gauges will help to hone in on that.

There is also the system pressure regulator that screws into the body of the FD, maybe that plunger is stickign open.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 26 Nov 2011 01:05 #7133


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Thanks all for the help...smtcapecod FWIW the screen mesh was checked by accident today (before reading your input) and yes, it was clogged solid, luckily I had another one from a different FD to install in the mean time until I get this one cleaned out. By holding the relay I meant engaging it by hand with no jumper. The relay is working as it should, but I fear my ign switch is on its way out. I tested pump flow and it is accurate for the system at this point. Going to get at it again tomorrow.

Thanks for the help all...many parts on the way.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 26 Nov 2011 05:34 #7134


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smtcapecod;7280 wrote:
One common point of failure is the brass union where the main fuel feed goes into the fuel distributor, it has a very fine mesh brass screen inside that gets clogged, could impede sufficient flow through the FD and might affect pressure.

Yes, I know of one 928 (not mine) that chased a problem for 1-2 years before finding this as the cause.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 26 Nov 2011 17:38 #7141


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smtcapecod;7280 wrote:
One common point of failure is the brass union where the main fuel feed goes into the fuel distributor, it has a very fine mesh brass screen inside that gets clogged, could impede sufficient flow through the FD and might affect pressure.

Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net;7296 wrote:
Yes, I know of one 928 (not mine) that chased a problem for 1-2 years before finding this as the cause.

Yes thats right, that dam screen. I remember reading about that. It should have been the first place we sent you :rolleyes:
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 26 Nov 2011 19:01 #7142


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well it will idle (as long as I don't touch the throttle), but I have no throttle response...on to checking more for vacuum leaks and the like. If I give it even a little throttle it will kill the car...this is difficult without a good set of gauges, I may have to wait until I get them from 928sRus. Who knows...I guess it could also need to run through until it gets some good fuel, but I had it idle in the drive for about 10 minutes with no real issues to get warm.

Thanks for the help

Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 26 Nov 2011 19:31 #7144


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he_mech_usmc;7305 wrote:
well it will idle (as long as I don't touch the throttle), but I have no throttle response...on to checking more for vacuum leaks and the like. If I give it even a little throttle it will kill the car...this is difficult without a good set of gauges, I may have to wait until I get them from 928sRus. Who knows...I guess it could also need to run through until it gets some good fuel, but I had it idle in the drive for about 10 minutes with no real issues to get warm.

Thanks for the help

Josh

I hate hunting for vacuum leaks on 928s with all of their varieties of lines and hoses and such. The only ones that leak are the ones that require you to tear down the whole intake to replace, seemingly. And if it's accessible, then Porsche no longer makes the particular hose that you need. :mad:

I wish they produced intake refresh kits for our earlier 928s like they do the later models.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 06 Dec 2011 07:46 #7288


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ick, hope it isn't fuel distributor. Or the brake booster, speaking of vaccuum- good pedal?
I might change the sytem pressure regulator in the FD as a precaution too, but I'm prone to changing things in advance of a solid diagnosis- not the best approach in most respects.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 06 Dec 2011 11:23 #7289


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I've only been here 2 years but I don't think I have heard of a bad fuel distributor. Brake booster maybe once. The problem is, the more you change the harder it gets to diagnose the problem, so try not to change to much, just try to verife each system.

In post #6 you saidhe_mech_usmc;7227 wrote:
Got home last night with no CIS gauges, held the FP relay to build pressure, car fired and I let go of the relay...relay stayed engaged and the car ran for approx 2 min, but when I lost pressure the car died...just wondering if the 044 pump may cure this...no visible leaks, and I can't smell fuel leaking anywhere so I don't know what is causing the loss of pressure, could be the cheap pump...got the CIS gauges on the way...didn't know if anyone had a spare 044 pump that I could get them to part with to try while I wait.

Thanks,
Josh

I want to know what you mean by holding the FP relay

Also, did you remove and clean the screen?

Brad
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 06 Dec 2011 19:27 #7293


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Fuel distributors are pretty vulnerable to problems from sitting. The rubber seals inside can react with some fuel and particularly some fuel additives, and the plunger itself can get hung up via silt corrosion, debris from degraded parts.

If it ran for close to two minutes, that should be far longer than the cold start valve would support with its initial squirt, so that's good.

I agree that the relay still sounds odd- does it have a reset switch physically on the relay (in a non-oem fashion)? Still don't think that's the root problem, if it is passing fuel sufficient to idle, but doesn't richen up in response to throttle movement..have you pulled the air cleaner off and tried to depress or watch the air metering plate, or are you just using the linkage on the throttle body?
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 08 Dec 2011 09:41 #7315


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it seems that the FD is good at this point, but I think there may be some crap inside. The air metering plate has some pressure on it after the car is shut down so it appears that it is holding pressure in the FD as it should, I have been doing all of the testing on my own so it has been a little hard to get to some of the components. The car would not stay running without the air filter on, but as soon as I put it on it will sit and idle until I shut the car off or attempt to give it some throttle. It's outside and we have 30 deg temps so as soon as I get a hankering to get cold I'll go out and pull all of the injector lines and injectors and clean them out...so in reference to the throttle question I guess yes, I am only relying on the cable to the throttle body. Again, the relay is working as it should, before I found the mesh screen in the FD plugged I had to hold it to "over pressure" the FD intake port to allow fuel through. When the car is Idling it stays engaged and when the car is off it resets as it should.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 08 Dec 2011 10:42 #7316


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he_mech_usmc;7483 wrote:
it seems that the FD is good at this point, but I think there may be some crap inside. The air metering plate has some pressure on it after the car is shut down so it appears that it is holding pressure in the FD as it should, I have been doing all of the testing on my own so it has been a little hard to get to some of the components. The car would not stay running without the air filter on, but as soon as I put it on it will sit and idle until I shut the car off or attempt to give it some throttle. It's outside and we have 30 deg temps so as soon as I get a hankering to get cold I'll go out and pull all of the injector lines and injectors and clean them out...so in reference to the throttle question I guess yes, I am only relying on the cable to the throttle body. Again, the relay is working as it should, before I found the mesh screen in the FD plugged I had to hold it to "over pressure" the FD intake port to allow fuel through. When the car is Idling it stays engaged and when the car is off it resets as it should.

Thanks,
Josh


Hey Josh;
It looks like you are on the right track.
If the screen was pluged then it may be that some got through and contaminated the rest of the system.
keep cleaning and checking

Brad
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 19 Dec 2011 00:14 #7418


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Parts are on the way... should be in by wednsday... maybe I'll have a little Christmas present to myself... if it gets running.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 08 Jan 2012 20:04 #7688


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Ok guys, got back at it today...got the oil changed...good thing that the Dodge Ram oil plug is the same as my 79 euro. I got my gauge set from Roger...need to hook it up and see what I have as far as pressure. The car is running a bit different than when I was last at it. It will fire, but not stay running...I think I'll take the FD apart tomorrow and clean it out again...could be more junk in it still.

AHHHHH!!!!If it would only run, I would drive it every day...does anyone have a spare ignition switch...I can get it to crank, but I have to wiggle the key

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 10 Jan 2012 09:19 #7727


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So I got back at it yesterday and 5 lines from the fuel distributor to the injectors are completely clogged...any idea on the best way to get these cleaned out? or just replace with new?

TIA,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 10 Jan 2012 13:23 #7735


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You would have to give me more detail.
What kind of lines? rubber?
how about a picture.
If you have no way of cleaning them, you could take them in and ask at a local ford dealer if they could blow them out for you.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 10 Jan 2012 13:41 #7736


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They're the hard metal lines from the FD to the injectors, the CIS has individual lines running to each injector...trying to consider a practical replacement as well. BigAl has some that he's been holding for me, but I don't know if that's really the way I want to go with it.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 10 Jan 2012 14:20 #7737


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OK, steel lines can be soaked in a can or tray of carb cleaner.
You will want a tray or can with a lid :eek:

After that have soaked for 4-6 hours, wash then under hot water and they should be sparkleing clean inside and out.
:cool:Thats what I would do.:cool:
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 10 Jan 2012 20:16 #7743


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Got at it tonight, got the injector lines cleared out...the FD decided to start leaking, took it apart and cleaned it out, a little Indian head and back together...put back in and no leaks, but everything is still out of whack. I know that the timing is good and there is spark...but this CIS is starting to irritate the hell out of me...

I have the CIS gauge set, but am a little unsure how to set it up to read pressures...

I'll give it a couple more tries and then...? This system is actually so simple that I'm positive that I'll be extremely pissed when I figure it out.

Thanks guys

Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 10 Jan 2012 20:43 #7745


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Very few folks open up a CIS FD because they are quite fiddly and difficult to get back together and get working correctly... as you are finding out. There has to be someone out here who has done this and can help, but I'll be damned if I know who that might be.

Keep us posted and good luck!
James
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80 Arrow Blue / Gray GT Class Racer
81 Light Blue Metallic / Brown-Beige
84 Ruby Red / Black AO84
88 Dark Blue / Linen-Black
92 Polar Silver / Dark Blue 92EURO
93 Arrow Blue / Black SuperBlu
95 Green / Black #51
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 10 Jan 2012 21:07 #7752


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I had a long learning curve/frustration with CIS too....low mile car that had been sitting..in the end..turned out to be multiple faults that were difficult to isolate- clogs in the fuel, erratic TSZ ignition module, incorrect coil, vacuum leaks...Just took time and a lot of effort and getting in up to the elbows. You've already run the gauntlets of mapping out the fuel flow and getting into the WUR and the FD.

Hang in there, it may be a brow-slapper when you're done, but as far as I'm concerned a variable system that acts on its own parameters is an inherently evil gordian fuel knot to begin with, and it makes my head hurt.
But its great when it works. I didn't believe folks that once it was sorted I could hook up the battery on a car that had been napping for a span of many months, and it would fire instantly...but it does.

I haven't heard of clogged lines before...that is daunting. I was going to suggest hooking them with a positive connection, reducers hose & clamp to a parts cleaner for a pressure flush..

Gauges are will help hone in on the fuel pressure curves, but don't give an instant diagnosis beyond where you are already at. They can just tell you if you are within spec and something else is at-play, or whether you are as far out of spec as you would be to be in a no-run condition...in which case you still have to isolate the fault(s).

If you can drop me an email, I may have some .pdfs on hand, not sure they will help.

There are some great CIS folks on that other porsche forum...the place sometimes comes with a heaping spoonful of other bs, but the CIS support can be helpful.

Attached files
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 10 Jan 2012 21:09 #7753


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James,
I would like to believe that the FD is finally back to where it should be now that it's clean inside, and not leaking...I just need to figure out how to hook up the gauges to get the pressure readings...I hope that the WUR isn't bad...it's back to firing on key turn, running about 15 seconds maybe 25 and then dying. I need to go back and do a flow check to make sure that I have appropriate flow rates for the car...still thinking that the FP that I put in isn't giving enough fuel.

Steve,
Thanks for the thoughts on cleaning the lines out...I ended up using some safety wire and slowly working through the lines to break the crud up and then blowing it out with some carb cleaner and then air from the air compressor with an air gun...I know it's getting fuel, otherwise it wouldn't even fire, I just think that it's not enough

on another note...anyone ever had an issue with the starter grinding? I know that I have good voltage, and my flywheel is good all the way around, just kinda figure that the starter is giving out after 33 years...it appears to be the original starter. It will engage about 5 cranks in a row and then another 5 grinding then a couple cranks and then back to grinding....I can deal with that until the car stays running and then on to the next problem.

thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 11 Jan 2012 21:43 #7760


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Ok, got back at it tonight...with the help of the wife. I checked "warm" control pressure and system pressure..."warm" control pressure was 5.1 bar, system pressure was approx 5.15 bar...don't know exactly what that means, but I don't think that it's right. Any ideas guys?

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 11 Jan 2012 22:12 #7761


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In post #6 i posted



section 25-6 of the WSM has a control pressure "warm" 2.8 - 3.2 bar
without vacuum
and
system pressure test value of 5.2 - 5.8 bar

Fuel Injectors opening pressure is 3.0 - 4.1 bar

so control pressure at 5.1 bar is way hi, and system pressure was approx 5.15 bar is fine.
did you look at section 25-6 in the manual, it may help.
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 17 Jan 2012 01:19 #7815


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Got back at it today. Finally got pissed off and pulled everything with the intention of getting it all "right." Pulled the ENTIRE CIS system out of the car, spider, upper intake, FD, WUR, lower intake with TB...gutted it all the way down to the valley...get everything clean and checked and then back in...those cheap enclosures [$240] really do the job. I don't have a garage at my house so it's been hard to get out and work on the car in the crappy weather we've been having. I guess 3rd times a charm...wait, I think it's the 5th time I've torn down the FD...oh well, I get better at it each time I go for it. And no, it was not leaking after the last rebuild, but I think I may have been a little over zealous in the reassembly by putting it together before the Indian head set up...hoping that I didn't accidentally plug the metering hole. The WUR is free and clean...finally. Looks like I have good flow too, just would rather have the bigger flow pump by a name brand instead of the cheap p.o.s. that I have in it...no telling when or if it will go out. I'll post more of what I find when I get the car back together.

Thanks for the help,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 17 Jan 2012 10:07 #7816


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he_mech_usmc;7987 wrote:
Got back at it today. Finally got pissed off and pulled everything with the intention of getting it all "right." Pulled the ENTIRE CIS system out of the car, spider, upper intake, FD, WUR, lower intake with TB...gutted it all the way down to the valley...get everything clean and checked and then back in...those cheap enclosures [$240] really do the job. I don't have a garage at my house so it's been hard to get out and work on the car in the crappy weather we've been having. I guess 3rd times a charm...wait, I think it's the 5th time I've torn down the FD...oh well, I get better at it each time I go for it. And no, it was not leaking after the last rebuild, but I think I may have been a little over zealous in the reassembly by putting it together before the Indian head set up...hoping that I didn't accidentally plug the metering hole. The WUR is free and clean...finally. Looks like I have good flow too, just would rather have the bigger flow pump by a name brand instead of the cheap p.o.s. that I have in it...no telling when or if it will go out. I'll post more of what I find when I get the car back together.

Thanks for the help,
Josh

Way to go Josh.
I hope you find where the issue is.
I know how it is when you just don't feel like working on it, but then when I do get at it, I seem to get so much done and wish I had started earlier.

Good Luck
Brad
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 24 Jan 2012 21:46 #7911


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ok...who dumped marbles into my engine? J/k, but seriously...it sounds like there are marbles in the engine...don't know if it's because the oil is so cold or what. Tried cranking it over and it sounds horrible...I really am considering not trying again until it warms up... I don't know if it is a predetonation knock or if it's a rod bearing or if the timing is all jacked up by a broken cam. I checked via the oil pressure gauge on the dash...yeah, I know, it's an "idiot gauge", but it was showing what I would consider high average oil pressure during cranking. I also checked the timing via marks on cams and at the distributor all lines up. All I did was clean the above listed components and replace vacuum lines... I hope that this isn't the death of an OB euro...although if it is...anyone interested so I can get the S4 from Stan? Just looking to get this sorted out next...guess I don't have a choice at this point.

TIA,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 24 Jan 2012 22:32 #7912


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Josh, I wish I could help you with this but I do not know this car.

The marble sound scares me.

At this point unless someone else on here can give you some step by step experienced advice, you better wait and get help.

I would post a request for help on Rennlist if you have not yet done so.
You really need someone that can come over and go through it with you before you end up damaging something.

IMHO
Brad
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 25 Jan 2012 07:54 #7913


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Brad,
I updated the same on rennlist, one thought is that it may be vapor locking with fuel causing the car to become a gas "diesel" through compression explosion of too much fuel in the cyls... don't know...trying to look for a shop that knows 928's and is probably going to bend me over, but I want the car running before attempting to get rid of some other projects so that I can put Stan's s4 on lock down...there's something in the pictures on that car...makes me want it REALLY badly. But then again I have had the 928 bug since I was 10. The 79 euro is my 2nd 928 and currently my only 928, but I have been looking for another. I may have to take it to the other side of the state...might call Dennis today and see if there is anyone that he would recommend, saw an ob engine on CL near here, don't know how complete or even if it is usable, but for they are asking $750...still including what I have into the car and parts at this point is less than 2 grand so I'm still ok...I paid more for the fuel tank than I did for the entire car...lol

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 26 Jan 2012 20:45 #7923


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I admire your determination- its frustrating that we haven't been able to route the right solution or a friendly set of (informed) helping hands to get it squared.

Stan's car will be well sorted. Getting another one that isn't- well its another oll of the dice and fix it issues can compound!

I don't know if you can get any video of the attempts to start and noise and post to Y/T and then refer the forum to that...a little more of a virtual diagnosis..
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 26 Jan 2012 21:27 #7926


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Steve,
I'll try to get a video of the noise and general composure of the car. I don't want to try and crank it over again without finding out the cause of the issue...aluminum block without sleeves with that noise, no thanks...although I do have an lt1 that I could throw in it and know that it would run...or NOT...I love the sound of that engine when it runs right. I just changed the oil, but I'm going to drain and remove the pan to see the bottom side. Is it possible to get the pan out without pulling the motor and without too much grief? I'm also going to boroscope the cyls through the spark plug holes.

Thanks,
Josh
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 26 Jan 2012 21:27 #7927


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smtcapecod;8095 wrote:
Stan's car will be well sorted.

He isn't talking about buying the well sorted one, he is talking about the project car, but anyone willing to work in a portable garage in MI in the winter sounds like a great project car candidate :D
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Anyone in Michigan with OB CIS knowledge? 26 Jan 2012 21:33 #7929


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he_mech_usmc;8098 wrote:
Is it possible to get the pan out without pulling the motor and without too much grief? I'm also going to boroscope the cyls through the spark plug holes.

Possible? Yes.
Quick? No, as it requires dropping the front cross member, and disconnecting much of the front suspension.
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